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ASSO X 780

Publié : 20 juil. 2017, 23:19
par Bullit
Hello mates,

I'm an aerospace engineer from Spain and I wanted to write in this forum as I have seen several projects of ASSO X completed or on going.

I purchased a set of drawings from also-aero.fr. Does anyone know if they are still on business? I have contacted a couple of times since the last three weeks and I'm still waiting a response.

Well, I have started modelling the Asso in CAD in order to have a better idea about the construction process, check the design and introduce slight modifications.

The first surprise is that the wing drawings present several errors in the measures (dimensional and missing data), scales and representations... so more reasons to model in CAD before doing anything. I have asked to Eric about a reference available were these errors are gathered but nothing replied yet.

I will appreciate the experience of those of you who faced to these things and surely many others when started to build.

In the other hand, I have been trying to identify the wing airfoil. I have found partial matches with different sections but not a full match. Do you know the airfoil type employed?

I have already modelled the wing spars and I'm working now with the ribs. I will post some captures when it starts to take shape in the following weeks.

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 23 juil. 2017, 10:01
par Gilles CHRISTEN
Hello ...

I know not answer all your questions but the profile of the Asso X is a NACA 23012


Bien à vous !

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 25 juil. 2017, 23:50
par Bullit
Hi,

The 23015 is quite different to the ASSO airfoil, below you can see both separated and overlaid.

Image

A 2315 would be closer however it has a bigger chamber up to about a 30% chord.

How did you get the airfoil type?

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 26 sept. 2017, 22:25
par nicolas
it isn't a naca 23012 or 23015 but a laminar airfoils

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 27 sept. 2017, 20:55
par didier marie
De toute évidence, ce n'est pas un profil de la série 230 ... j'ai bien regardé, peut être un série 64, mais personne n'est en mesure aujourd'hui de nous dire quel est le profil utilisé par Vidor ... Mais il est sur que les plans comportent pas mal d'erreurs de cote, ça ne facilite pas le travail. Mais ça se fait, l'ASSO est une magnifique machine ...
Mais ce serait better qu'ici vous speakiez french non ?

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 27 sept. 2017, 22:47
par nicolas
j'ai quelques planches de l'asso x-ray en version dao et il est evident que le concepteur ne maitrisait pas la DAO. il faudrait reprendre les plans integralement pour les rendre juste et utilsable j'ai deja modife cex que je possede. c'est long mais pas dur. de plus ca permet de transposer en DXF vertaines parties afin de fournir le fichier aux professionnels de la decouoe numerique.


enfin pour le profil cela pourait, comme Didier le fait remarquer, etre sur une base de NACA 64 effectivement je pencherais sur une base de NACA 64-210, car j'ai ouie dire que c'etait un profil propre a Vidor.

Didier la langue aeronautique c'est l'anglais :lol: Helas...Treve de plaisanterie si notre collegue espagnol ne parle pas le francais en tant que professionnel de l'aeronautique ca deuxieme langue c'est l'anglais. a nous de traduire.

desole pour les accents manquant mais a mon boulot les claviers sont anglais comme les AMM....la langue que je suis oblige de pratiquer tous les jours, sur notre territoire en plus..... :oops: :evil:

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 02 oct. 2017, 22:31
par Bullit
Hi again, good to see more contribution to the post.

Thank you Nicolas to your support, I just speak Spanish and the official aeronautical language ;) . I'm sure that we will be able to understand each other using translators.

It is obvious that the profile is laminar but I have not found any perfect match. Partially, I have found good matches for the upper and lower chambers alone but nothing about the full profile. The 64-210 is also too far to match as well as that profile characteristics are not optimal compared to the low speed performances that some builders have declared.

Image

I'm still working on the 3D models but the drawings have so many mistakes that I barely understand how there are several build and flying so nice. That must be a good proof that it is a good design... I hope :roll:

Now I'm trying to decode a view which affects to the ribs alignment with the main spar. The drawing under question is the A5 and the view is the F; it is not represented in the top view of the wing and it just appears in the drawing. I don't get to understand it and I have several doubts about it could be wrong defined. Otherwise, it will affect to the profile shape projection... which could explain why there isn't any match with it. Below you can see the view of my question:
Image

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 03 oct. 2017, 09:12
par aubert
Hi
did you try with NACA 64-213 ?
Dom

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 04 oct. 2017, 18:01
par nicolas
i read on the web,but i haven't found anything about this profil, a marsden

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 09 oct. 2017, 14:00
par Markproa
Hi,

I apologise that I only speak English (Australia) so rely on Google translate to read this forum. I am also interested in building the Asso x and this is the most active forum for this aircraft. I am ordering my plans from S Littner in Canada who is the agent here for Vidors plans.

As to the airfoil section I have spoken to a fellow who knew Vidor and gave this advise- "There were three airfoils on the Asso X. The last and the fastest one is a hybrid tapered airfoil, allowing both fast speeds and low stall speeds. Before Bepi Vidor passed away, he told me that he designed this airfoil himself. The Millenium/Blackshape/Tarragon do not have the same airfoil as the Asso X"

I hope this helps.

Bullit, I am a yacht designer with CAD experience using Rhino Software. I too was thinking of modelling the Asso X in 3d. It seems silly us both doing it. Are you willing to share your model?

Cheer,
Mark

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 10 oct. 2017, 11:52
par gazaile100
Hello guys and welcome here.
This forum turns more international and I think that markproa is our first Australian guest.
The Asso X is a great plane.
I know Eric AKA "AssoX" on this forum. He is the French "dealer" for Vidor's plans. His built is magnificent.
I have also heard that there are some errors and approximations on the prints that make the understanding and construction difficult for the average homebuilder.
So if you, guys, are ready to make a serious work in order to get some plans as precise as those of the French "gazaile" (each single part detailed on solidworks schemes, over 10k photos, dedicated forum), that would be a great step forward and many people could be interested in.
I think that some details may be corrected and some others improved in order to produce the perfect toy.
An effort should be done on the weight. Vidor was not very concerned by a lightweight as Italian regulations for Ultralights are more permissive than for other countries.
There is just a question about the copyright of such improvements, as Vidor passed away.
This subject might be seen with Bepi relatives, if concerned, and regional official dealers.
Good luck and give some news if this collaborative project goes on.
Have a good day.

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 13 oct. 2017, 12:55
par Markproa
gazaile100 a écrit :Hello guys and welcome here.
This forum turns more international and I think that markproa is our first Australian guest.
The Asso X is a great plane. .
Thank you for the welcome.

M

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 13 oct. 2017, 14:14
par ciompi
gazaile100 a écrit : as Italian regulations for Ultralights are more permissive than for other countries.
not "regulations" are more permissive in Italy, but "regulators"....

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 24 oct. 2017, 03:31
par Dukounet
Bullit a écrit :Hi again, good to see more contribution to the post.

Thank you Nicolas to your support, I just speak Spanish and the official aeronautical language ;) . I'm sure that we will be able to understand each other using translators.

It is obvious that the profile is laminar but I have not found any perfect match. Partially, I have found good matches for the upper and lower chambers alone but nothing about the full profile. The 64-210 is also too far to match as well as that profile characteristics are not optimal compared to the low speed performances that some builders have declared.

Image

I'm still working on the 3D models but the drawings have so many mistakes that I barely understand how there are several build and flying so nice. That must be a good proof that it is a good design... I hope :roll:

Now I'm trying to decode a view which affects to the ribs alignment with the main spar. The drawing under question is the A5 and the view is the F; it is not represented in the top view of the wing and it just appears in the drawing. I don't get to understand it and I have several doubts about it could be wrong defined. Otherwise, it will affect to the profile shape projection... which could explain why there isn't any match with it. Below you can see the view of my question:
Image

Hey, Welcome !
What you are handling is pretty interesting! getting a 3D picture of that bird would rise up the interest of bunch of people here and set the stage of a very new story! I am looking forward to buy the Asso X book too, and I was clearly told that the understanding of that plan has nothing to do with some others ( French Pennec Gazail') ! but anyway, this plane is magnificent and I am going to start the story in a couple of months! I understand the offset rib ( 5mm) according to the main spar will affect the projection. Do you have the shape of the rib N°2. Hope Vidor took that into account... If not, looks like a full redesign of the wing is necessary...
What soft are you using ? I Can give an hand on either solidWorks or AutoCAD (dwg..)...(preference to Autocad ...I know, it is not common....) :roll:

Re: ASSO X 780

Publié : 13 nov. 2017, 20:07
par Bullit
Hello again,

My apologies but I have been busy with some family matters and I haven't had time to view the forum progress.

@Markproa:
I've sent you a PM

@gazelle100:
I purchased the drawings set to Eric but I have not been able to get in touch with him again. Do you know if he is still on business or at least, contributing to the forum?
It would be great to get in touch with Eric to know about the profiles alignment with the main spar. Considering Eric's solution implemented and flight characteristics of his ASSO would be nice to be sure to go through the right way.
My aim is to complete the full modelling, I'm introducing some changes to the original design and some of them that I have in mind are to save some weight. Nevertheless, my intention isn't to recalculate the structure.
It's a shame the low information available to build this aircraft and the lost of information that seems to have happened after some webs closure. I would like to contribute to it.

@Dukounet
If the ribs are aligned as the drawings seem to require, the profile projection is going to be affected and the effective airfoil is going to be other than the one build. I'm going to project this airfoil and search again if there is any match with a standard airfoil type. I have not seen it before and I don't see the reason to do that unless that there is any kind of intention by Vidor to hide the real airfoil type. Moreover, this offset is going to make more difficult the skinning of the wing so again, I don't see a clear reason for that.
All the ribs are externally and proportionally identical in shape.
I'm using CATIA to model it.

Cheers.